Curse

Daesu · May 07, 2011, 07:53 AM // 07:53

It is a pretty safe build. Some things I noticed:

1. Your derv heroes tend to run out of energy. Perhaps this is easily solved by swapping out certain skills.

2. If you using this with a melee character, try flagging or your mesmer heroes would tend to die first.

LexTalionis · May 07, 2011, 07:55 AM // 07:55

@Shanaya:
Well, when I said "Soul Twisting" I kinda meant a catchall for the usual protective ST build which always includes Shelter and sometimes Union and Displacement. You're correct though, and also absolutely correct about the flash Enchantment name - it should be Veil of Thorns.

@Mortenya:
Melandru isn't that good, if you have a lot of trouble with conditions, I'd suggest putting Foul Feast on the BiP user OR putting on Spirit's Gift on either of the ritualists.

Here's a quick build for BiP if conditions (Blind) are really bad:
N/Rt 12+1 Blood Magic, 8+1 Soul Reaping, 12 Restoration
Blood is Power, Blood Bond, Spirit Light (or Ghostmirror), Mend Body and Soul, Recovery OR Protective was Kaolai OR Life (pick two), Signet of Lost Souls, Death Pact Signet OR Foul Feast. Most of the time, Dwayna healing is going to make you laugh at degen from conditions, so Spirit's Gift can cover the annoying bit (cleaning up after battle).

Note that if you run this BiP, your healing will be complete overkill, so take some restoration off your SoS ritualist and put in things like Lamentation or maybe Spirit Rift instead.

@Daesu: Energy is a problem occasionally (especially with banishing strike), so taking Eremite's Zeal is recommended if it's a huge hassle. Make sure Mysticism is at 15 (use two major runes, Earth and Mysticism). If you're willing to micromanage (contrary to the point of the build, I know), Eremite's Zeal or Meditation for energy management isn't needed at all. If your dervishes get low on energy, just hit them with Blood is Power - problem solved! Banishing Strike's damage increase (when combined with Sand Shards and Splinter) is really kind of unbelievable. Also, thank you so very much about the comment with melee players! I don't run one normally, so tips like that are appreciated.

If melee is a huge problem with killing Mesmers, I'm currently using a ST/Protection hybrid with Protection at 6 and Aegis, Shield of Absorption and Spirit Bond. Shadowsong is really nice too, but can interfere with keeping Shelter up. Of course, I have to try something retarded and nonconformist so I'm currently testing Heart of Shadow on my backline, my theory is that it's the fastest way of getting the AI out of AoEs.

Thanks for trying the build everyone, I'm glad it's working for you guys. I'll do my best to make the core idea better.

Kunder · May 07, 2011, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

@Kunder

That's actually a fairly interesting concept - you focus on AoD's ability to keep minions up and alive in the middle of high pressure.

Question though: How well does it perform against elementalists and mesmers in HM? You're not running much caster disruption. Maybe it's not necessary, I'm rather paranoid. One splinter weapon user is usually enough to keep it up on two targets, but I guess you're using an extra for minions.

For everything short of bosses or elite areas, you can generally just tank through it even without the ST rit as long as you spread out decently. In other cases, thats where the ST comes in. Keep in mind that shelter works to keep minions alive just the same as it does players. At least 2 or 3 nukes should always bounce harmlessly off the party, past that you have to hope something is dead, otherwise occupied, or unable to concentrate the firepower with other enemies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

By the by, scythes are fine for party healing as long as you keep Dervish heroes on "Defensive" mode. This ensures they'll never run out of earshot range of you, unlike melee henchmen which are locked on "aggressive".

In perfect situations, but things always change in battle and they can easily get out of range of your backline. Besides, if they stand right next to me they get EBSoH, which makes their spears more damaging than scythes anyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mortenya

@kunder: have you watched your Necro heroes to see if they're casting "Find Their Weakness!"?

They cast it very often for me. Not having energy is a problem at times, though. Make sure Fall Back is disabled and manually used, else they waste a ton of energy hitting that in the middle of battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

@Kunder: Are you're derv heroes staying at range from foes? I've noticed that they tend to walk up into melee range to use the enchantments that deal initial damage/condition even if they are using spears. With skills like Heart fo holy flame, armor of sanctity and I'm guessing Mirage cloak too, they use those skills at melee range and will remain at melee range.

I'm not seeing that happen. It might be (pure speculation) because my flash enchantments are all 1s, and the hero only runs up to an enemy after they cast the enchantment to wait for it to go off and do damage.

LexTalionis · May 07, 2011, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

In perfect situations, but things always change in battle and they can easily get out of range of your backline. Besides, if they stand right next to me they get EBSoH, which makes their spears more damaging than scythes anyways.

I've tested Dwaynaway extensively for 2 weeks and I can say that this has never EVER happened, not even when my Dervishes are madly trying to flee an AoE that got dumped on top of them and the way back to my party was bodyblocked by minions (in that case, they'll stand there and suck up all the hits and possibly die on the spot). Defensive setting more or less hard-wires their AI to cancel whatever the heck they're doing the instant they get out of earshot (lit: abandon their posts) and run back to you. The bad behaviour of non-hero henchmen like Devona or Little Thom et al. is because they're permanently set on "Aggressive", where they don't have this "drop whatever you're doing and stop chasing the target out of range" limitation and will happily run 3 aggro bubbles away to close a height gap or get behind a wall and aggro 5 enemy groups on the way.

It's interesting you don't seem to have the melee range problem with spears - I've also tested dervish AI in the GtoB with bows and there seems to be a point at which (it's not consistent, it can be from 10 seconds to a full minute) the AI will decide to run into nearby range so they can hit things with Flash Enchantment AoEs (if the flash enchant has an AoE effect). I'll try spears sometime, but half the point of scythes is so that they WILL spread out and bodyblock stuff rushing to your backline. It lowers the damage you take from AOEs, which makes Shelter last longer, and clumps foes nicely.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I liked your synergy with minions and Dwayna Healing + the life penalty from Order of Undeath. I don't really like minions myself, but that's just a taste issue and I can definitely see it working.

Update on Mesmer resilience: Heart of Shadow didn't work out too well, but I took a leaf out of PvP and stuck Dark Escape on the Mesmers and I'm rather impressed with the results. I'll have to do a few more AoE heavy areas.

Kunder · May 07, 2011, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

I've tested Dwaynaway extensively for 2 weeks and I can say that this has never EVER happened, not even when my Dervishes are madly trying to flee an AoE that got dumped on top of them and the way back to my party was bodyblocked by minions (in that case, they'll stand there and suck up all the hits and possibly die on the spot). Defensive setting more or less hard-wires their AI to cancel whatever the heck they're doing the instant they get out of earshot (lit: abandon their posts) and run back to you. The bad behaviour of non-hero henchmen like Devona or Little Thom et al. is because they're permanently set on "Aggressive", where they don't have this "drop whatever you're doing and stop chasing the target out of range" limitation and will happily run 3 aggro bubbles away to close a height gap or get behind a wall and aggro 5 enemy groups on the way.

They might not get out of range of you personally, but I find that its very easy for them to get out of range of other heroes. If an enemy melee is on a backline caster and they run back while the derv runs the other way towards the front, they can get out of earshot quickly

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

It's interesting you don't seem to have the melee range problem with spears - I've also tested dervish AI in the GtoB with bows and there seems to be a point at which (it's not consistent, it can be from 10 seconds to a full minute) the AI will decide to run into nearby range so they can hit things with Flash Enchantment AoEs (if the flash enchant has an AoE effect). I'll try spears sometime, but half the point of scythes is so that they WILL spread out and bodyblock stuff rushing to your backline. It lowers the damage you take from AOEs, which makes Shelter last longer, and clumps foes nicely

I went in and set them on the master of damage for 10 mins straight, and they still stood right next to me afterwords. Its possible that the faster attack of spears + IAS occupies them more. I handle body blocking with 22 minions, myself

LexTalionis · May 07, 2011, 03:25 PM // 15:25

If it's the faster attack speed, that's very very interesting. I might be able to abuse that if I require position control over the AoE capabilities of the dervish, like in the DoA. Thanks for the heads up, I'll be sure to check it out!

Also: As far as the earshot thing, I don't really think it's an issue at all. If a hero gets under pressure, dervishes usually run back into range to cast Infuse or Signet of Pious Light. Secondly, they're nearly always under "Stand your ground!" from my ritualist, even though he kites like Benjamin Franklin.

Kunder · May 07, 2011, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Also: As far as the earshot thing, I don't really think it's an issue at all. If a hero gets under pressure, dervishes usually run back into range to cast Infuse or Signet of Pious Light. Secondly, they're nearly always under "Stand your ground!" from my ritualist, even though he kites like Benjamin Franklin.

Hmm, good point. Your dervs have healing skills to bring em back into range as they cast it on allies, mine are set to pure enchant spamming. Personally, I like having them able to attack 24/7 to hit my called targets which is why I don't have anything but flash enchants on em.

LexTalionis · May 07, 2011, 04:21 PM // 16:21

I understand about Flash Enchantments only, it's probably a perfectly viable approach, especially since Whirling Charge is so good by itself

I just can't resist Signet of Pious Light though - I'm like "Healing Burst? Ahahahaha, pfft. I have a 184 health Healing Burst that costs 0 energy" (to be fair, it's got a 1 second longer recharge and a 0.25 second longer cast time, but the heal is stronger than healing burst, it's not a spell and the AoE hits all allies instead of party members)

mugen · May 08, 2011, 10:52 AM // 10:52

i like this build / Gratz
running a small variation in doa, it's nice. I ll post a screen if i can finish

LexTalionis · May 08, 2011, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Good luck! I'd love to see those screenshots!

(I know the NM of the DoA is manageable with a heavily modified Dwaynaway, I've done it myself, but the Foundry is a bit difficult, since you have to micro Dervish aggro bubbles for the third room - ended up dumping one Dervish for a UA healer which was less likely to aggro more things in the third room. If you need help with NM, just ask - I can go dig through my old screenshots.)

mugen · May 08, 2011, 04:01 PM // 16:01

here the build and 1 success zone !

0% skill micro except to lay spirit in critical quests / and some flag to run away sometimes (vs boss, or when you r trapped into 2 groups) ... "no ball" strategy skill.

the build is solid.. with this one i have the much success for yet. For example the monk boss on this zone. When you attack him a army spawn in your back. I ve been ele frozen and dead too far for any res possible... the bots were fighting alone the army and won (no SY i mean) ... with other teams, (thanks to my skills this happen so many times) they were all wiped-out in this situation

the most smooth run i made yet. the 2 dervish also make a lot Aoe dmg (i put some statts points enough to use scythe)...

failed @ boss foundry & fail @ boss ravenhart yet - but i endoss full responsabilty

(screens as proof :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/gw154.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/135/gw150m.jpg/)

Lex, you have given a second life to my (noob) dervish !

Part 2 of the same run

time is irrevelant - i ve made a pause for diner

note : the 3* dwanya is GREAT for the first part of the quest maybe afk can win .. ill try to make a movie

Part 3 : fail ... at half - room 4 they backstabbed me didnt pay attention

Daesu · May 08, 2011, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Instead of bringing Aegis and SoA on your ST rit, it makes more sense for them to be brought by a necro hero and have your ST rit bring AoU instead to extend the life of both your Shelter and Displacement.

Both Boon of Creation and Ghostly Haste can be stripped, while soul reaping can't.

LexTalionis · May 08, 2011, 06:18 PM // 18:18

@Daesu
Look, you. Protection Prayers are perfectly viable on the ST ritualist as long as you have enough energy management (BiP is enough). There is absolutely no need to shove everything onto a necromancer just because "Soul Reaping is good". Bar compression doesn't work like that and with Soul Twisting, there's no urgent need for Protection Prayers - they're just a backup that fit conveniently onto the 4 or so free slots any Soul Twisting Ritualist has (where using other spirits is off-limits since you want to prioritise Shelter).

I've never been in this theoretical zone with the strip-monster that somehow manages to prioritise stripping the enchantments off my ST ritualist when I have 2 dervishes prominently running around and tons of other enchantments all over the place. If I was going to stop using enchantments just because they were strippable, I wouldn't even touch Protection Prayers in the first place.

I know you're on a crusade to prove that AoU is great and indispensible, but could you keep it to that thread?

edit: Sorry, overreacted a little, but seriously speaking, in Dwaynaway, the only Protection Prayers skill that causes energy problems is Spirit Bond thanks to its spammable nature. The problem is it's pretty good though, so if I'd ever consider using a protection Necromancer, it'd be for that skill.

@mugen: Congratulations! Do be careful at the Foundry though, that's one of the areas with so much damage running around that they can spike you through Dwaynaway's heals. I'm not particularly good at that area, but it's usually the Fury that gets me (I keep trying to split pull it, since the wiki says it's possible).

EFGJack · May 08, 2011, 06:40 PM // 18:40

The Wiki article is correct. The Fury's group is a linked spawn but if you fish long enough you can get a monster or two chase you miles away while the rest of the group runs off. Often they follow you easier when you are below 20% percent. How I did it on my first time I found out their leashpoint and just kept pulling them to that spot and when they turn back I chased them and kept repeating this over and over again until something broke off from the group. I know a better way to deal with this now but this was when the 7H patch was new, anyway - give it a go sometime.

LexTalionis · May 08, 2011, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

The Wiki article is correct. The Fury's group is a linked spawn but if you fish long enough you can get a monster or two chase you miles away while the rest of the group runs off. Often they follow you easier when you are below 20% percent. How I did it on my first time I found out their leashpoint and just kept pulling them to that spot and when they turn back I chased them and kept repeating this over and over again until something broke off from the group. I know a better way to deal with this now but this was when the 7H patch was new, anyway - give it a go sometime.

@EFGJack: Thanks! I think I'd better get back to trying to-morrow then. I still have about 7 or so Titan gemstones to farm. -_-

mugen: Oh, just a minor skill recommendation: I overlooked Grenth's Aura because it's an EotN skill, but it's really good in Dwaynaway.

mugen · May 08, 2011, 08:38 PM // 20:38

i may try with a pet on a Dervish. rez-ing a pet a few times make some formation going weird (for example tomb king / act2 / the 7 driders camping... after a few attempt one can follow the pet when he run back to you)

yeah i have, but i dont know where to use it ... i want a attack skill cause paragon fire / and ireally need the regen aura / with or without make a huge difference for me. Dying to often without

Daesu · May 08, 2011, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

I know you're on a crusade to prove that AoU is great and indispensible, but could you keep it to that thread?

The problem with discussing this on the other thread is, you kept saying you have better opportunity cost than bringing AoU. But there is really not many other non-binding ritual skills from communing and spawning power that are worth bringing.

In this thread, you prioritized Aegis, SoA, and Ghostly Haste over AoU in your rit. However, your necro has self-heal/protect skills like Taste of Death and Dark Bond instead, which are questionable at best.

EDIT: It appears mugen modified your build to bring along AoU instead.

LexTalionis · May 09, 2011, 01:18 AM // 01:18

@Daesu: God, you're petty. I was trying to be civil and even offered a few concessions, but apparently you still don't understand; so let me phrase this bluntly. I used to run AoU. I don't anymore because I found out don't need it and I get better performance with other skills. Whether mugen uses it or not is irrelevant to me: EFGJack runs all 3 spirits but he doesn't use AoU in his 7H bar, does that prove anything?

I AM NOT YOU. I can function without AOU and I don't notice its absence. But perhaps you need it, so if you want to run it, RUN IT ALREADY. I still won't find it necessary. I'm not going to imply that you're a worse player for needing nor using it because people are different and frankly I have better things to do!

Chthon · May 09, 2011, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

The Wiki article is correct. The Fury's group is a linked spawn but if you fish long enough you can get a monster or two chase you miles away while the rest of the group runs off. Often they follow you easier when you are below 20% percent. How I did it on my first time I found out their leashpoint and just kept pulling them to that spot and when they turn back I chased them and kept repeating this over and over again until something broke off from the group. I know a better way to deal with this now but this was when the 7H patch was new, anyway - give it a go sometime.

Please do tell.

Daesu · May 09, 2011, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

@Daesu: God, you're petty. I was trying to be civil and even offered a few concessions, but apparently you still don't understand; so let me phrase this bluntly. I used to run AoU. I don't anymore because I found out don't need it and I get better performance with other skills. Whether mugen uses it or not is irrelevant to me: EFGJack runs all 3 spirits but he doesn't use AoU in his 7H bar, does that prove anything?

No it doesn't mean anything. Everyone knows his build is for advanced warriors, requires flagging, has less prots and more damage oriented than most meta builds. How can you even compare safer but slower killing Dwaynaway (i.e. with minimal skill needed) with Jack's build that requires skill? It is a whole different category.

I have tried both builds and let me just say that the typical battles using Jack's build don't last long at all, unlike those using Dwaynaway. His doesn't need AoU as much as the more defensive builds.

Quote:

I AM NOT YOU. I can function without AOU and I don't notice its absence. But perhaps you need it, so if you want to run it, RUN IT ALREADY. I still won't find it necessary. I'm not going to imply that you're a worse player for needing nor using it because people are different and frankly I have better things to do!

I don't understand why you have to be so upset just because you disagree with something I said. As far as I know, nobody has ever flamed you for not using AoU. I have tried both with and without AoU and I have a different conclusion from you. I have not used caps on you so I dont see why you need to lose your cool before I do. If we can't debate this out with proper analysis, then we would just agree to disagree on our choices of skills to bring along then, so chill.